00:00:00:00 – 00:00:29:21
Speaker 1
You. Welcome to conversation, the podcast of Belmont Abbey College. Today I am joined with Trent Horn. Trent is a Catholic apologist. Has been with Catholic Answers for several years and is the author of this new book, Why We Are Catholic. Trent, it’s a pleasure to have you on conversation.

00:00:29:22 – 00:00:31:02
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me.

00:00:31:04 – 00:00:37:16
Speaker 1
So tell us first about this book. Why? Why did you write? Why we’re Catholic.

00:00:37:18 – 00:01:00:19
Speaker 2
This is a book that I wish I had had during my investigation and discernment of Catholicism. So I was raised in a non-Catholic household, and by the time I got to high school, I wasn’t religious. And after meeting some Christian and Protestant friends in high school, they really challenged me, to learn about who the person of Jesus is and then eventually about the Catholic Church.

00:01:00:21 – 00:01:30:22
Speaker 2
And then I entered into the church. When I was about 17 years old. And then I started, you know, I went to college, graduated, got married, started working for Catholic Answers in 2012. I always wanted to help people who are seeking out the truth like I was. And I realized there was a gap in a particular kind of book, an easy to read book that you could give to basically anybody who says, I’m interested in being Catholic or I’m thinking about coming back to the Catholic Church.

00:01:31:00 – 00:01:49:19
Speaker 2
What can I read? And prior to writing, why were Catholic? There wasn’t really a nice single book you had to give people. The closest one was probably Scott Han’s book Rome Sweet Home, which is an excellent book. It’s a story of his conversion, but it deals mostly with Protestantism, so it would be as helpful, let’s say, to an atheist, and it’s more of a conversion story.

00:01:49:19 – 00:02:07:13
Speaker 2
Whereas I wanted something that just explained, here’s why we’re Catholic written, I would say at about an eighth grade level so that anybody can pick it up and read it. I don’t want to try to be highfalutin. I want to just get to the point short, easy, and give people the truth. And I think it’s blessed a lot of people.

00:02:07:13 – 00:02:14:15
Speaker 2
I think we sold probably 700,000 copies. So it’s, I think it’s it’s reached a lot of people.

00:02:14:17 – 00:02:18:11
Speaker 1
What are some what are some of the themes and topics in the work?

00:02:18:13 – 00:02:38:02
Speaker 2
Well, the work basically takes you from the beginning of faith to its end. I start with questions about God and truth. Is there a God? What about the problem of evil? Is there objective truth? And then has God revealed himself in the person of Jesus? How can we know Christianity is true among all the religions, world religions?

00:02:38:04 – 00:03:01:17
Speaker 2
And then did Christ establish a church? Why should we belong to the Catholic Church instead of any any other denomination? And so, going through Catholic doctrine, why do Catholics, seek the intercession of the saints? Why do we go to mass? Why do we have a pope? And just really answering those questions for people who may not have heard a a clear and succinct answer, then why do Catholics believe these different moral teachings that are controversial of our day and age?

00:03:01:19 – 00:03:22:09
Speaker 2
And then why do we believe in the last thing, specifically heaven and hell? All in just one nice element to be able to share with people. I’ve also found the book has been helpful for high school theology, high school apologetic groups, just helping young people learn how to defend their faith. Just studying two chapters at a time and going over it over a few months.

00:03:22:11 – 00:03:37:07
Speaker 1
As you’ve toured the country over the last few years, are there any particular questions that high schoolers college students are asking that they had not previously asked ten, 15 years ago?

00:03:37:08 – 00:03:59:14
Speaker 2
I think a lot of them are still very similar. The challenges are going to be perennial. You have challenges from other Christians who will ask, you know, why do you have a pope? Do Catholics worship Mary? Why do Catholics believe works are necessary to be, say, faith and works? And most of those questions have a a loaded they’re loaded questions with a false presupposition.

00:03:59:17 – 00:04:20:18
Speaker 2
We don’t worship Mary in the same way we worship God. We’re not saved by a arbitrary combination of faith and works. And so I lay that out in the book to help people to to understand these, the false presuppositions behind many of these questions. But I’ve noticed more challenges now arising as I go out from people who are really confronted by a lot of moral issues in the world today.

00:04:20:18 – 00:04:41:23
Speaker 2
Transgender ideology, how to embrace how to how to engage those who identify as pro-choice when there’s a surging pro-choice movement that is, out and about now, that is not they were in hiding when Roe v Wade was the law of the land because they had won, and now they’re come out in force. So there’s a myriad of objections and questions that come up when I when I go out.

00:04:42:01 – 00:05:07:21
Speaker 1
The issue of transgenderism does bring up one political question that I would like to ask. And that is, obviously there’s some relationship between politics and theology, and although they’re certainly different from each other, what does the election of Donald Trump bode for Catholicism in our country over the next four years?

00:05:07:23 – 00:05:42:22
Speaker 2
Well, I think that it creates an opportunity for a Catholicism that is not just about tradition and external appearances, but about a Catholicism that is willing to stand up to countercultural norms. I mean, in this country, Catholics, of course, have had a notorious time rising to higher levels of, political office. I mean, you had, the first openly Catholic presidential candidate, Al Smith, was unable to obtain, the nomination be, you know, because there was a lot of anti-Catholic settlement.

00:05:42:22 – 00:06:13:15
Speaker 2
But in the late 1920s, we have the Al Smith dinner now, John F Kennedy was only able to win the presidency because he, he had the famous Houston speech saying, you know, I’m not going to let my faith is an informing anything. I do really, as president. And then, of course, Joe Biden is president. And the idea here, as we see in Kennedy and Biden and the other Kennedys and Pelosi, we oftentimes see a Catholicism that has the the, the external elements, the ritual, going to mass and the teachings that do not ruffle the feathers of modern culture.

00:06:13:15 – 00:06:37:12
Speaker 2
Love your neighbor as yourself. Care for the poor? No, nobody disagrees on that. But an opportunity for Catholicism that is countercultural, that will say every human being should be protected under the law, including the unborn. That marriage is that which unites men and women and nobody else, and that a man is biologically determined. And so as a woman and a man cannot become a woman.

00:06:37:13 – 00:06:55:13
Speaker 2
These important elements of our culture, I think now there’s an opportunity for including people who are Catholics in political office and governors and senators who espouse this more counterculture. Catholicism is countercultural. I think there’s more of a chance for their voices to be heard and for policy to reflect that.

00:06:55:15 – 00:07:14:16
Speaker 1
People often talk about differences between American Catholicism or European Catholicism. Are such distinctions overrated? Is there anything unique, any gifts about American Catholicism or any potential problems in, American Catholicism that you’ve come across?

00:07:14:18 – 00:07:45:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that there are strengths in the American Catholic Church, and there are weaknesses. I think one of the strengths is that the Catholic Church in America has had to survive on its own two feet. When you look in Europe, for example, there was a long history of regions and kingdoms and nation states having official churches, even today in places like Germany, you have the church tax where you have to if you want to belong to a church, even if you don’t go to church, you just say, well, you belong to part of your taxes are diverted to that church.

00:07:45:01 – 00:08:03:17
Speaker 2
So you had you had a situation with the German Catholic Church where even as their attendance was declining, their revenues were increasing. And so that puts them in a position of being incredibly dependent on the state. I think there’s something similar happened in in Canada where you have we’re supposed to be like these public Catholic schools.

00:08:03:19 – 00:08:35:18
Speaker 2
They’re religious schools, but the government essentially runs them and has a lot of control over the educational materials. And they all say materials. And some of these schools that perfectly articulate the church’s teaching of homosexuality are considered illegal. They’re considered homophobic. So the fact that there is what Thomas Jefferson, in his letter to the Danbury Baptists, called a wall of separation because that’s not in the Constitution, but for first found in Jefferson’s letter, it allows the church to say no, it has to stand on its own two feet and can have its own vibrancy.

00:08:35:18 – 00:08:58:14
Speaker 2
It’s not propped up by anything else. Whereas the churches are becoming museums in Europe. It’s, it’s tragic. As Europe continues to decay with post-modernism and what what is happening to European culture? I do fear what’s going to happen in Europe. I mean, the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, but that doesn’t mean the church is going to survive in every place.

00:08:58:14 – 00:09:17:21
Speaker 2
So the Catholic Church needs to be thriving and, you know, North Africa and Turkey. Good luck finding a Catholic church there now. So, it doesn’t mean it’ll it’ll always survive, just maybe not in every region on Earth. So I do think that there’s a benefit here in, in the US, this missionary spirit, this religious fervor and America is just a very religious country.

00:09:17:23 – 00:09:51:07
Speaker 2
America was founded on those, ironically enough, who were who were fleeing religious persecution and then would turn around and persecute other people, including Catholics and and others here in the US, ironically enough. But we’re we’re very the other again, compared to Europe at least, we’re a very religious country. Downside, though, is I think and this goes back to the old heresy of Americanism, the idea that, oh, the American model of the relationship between church and state is the only acceptable one, or it’s a divinely given one, and that can go too far, because this idea there should always be a separation of church and state.

00:09:51:07 – 00:10:10:17
Speaker 2
Well, I think it’s benefited the church in the U.S. there there is something where if you to say, oh, I don’t think that we should necessarily do this and you’ll have people will say, I can’t outlaw abortion. I want to impose my faith on others. You know, we should just have the state should not be teaching any value related questions or ultimate ends for people.

00:10:10:19 – 00:10:30:17
Speaker 2
But historically, the church has recognized there is a value in the state ordering people not just towards a temporal end, but their eternal ends. Now, how that happens, you know, it’s up for debate. But I think vaunting the American system too high. So it’s an American is heresy. That that can be a problem. Also.

00:10:30:19 – 00:10:51:08
Speaker 1
So recognizing that there are, certain tensions that currently exist between the United States and, and the Catholic Church, but certain compatible. So certain things are compatible. Still, what tone should an apologist have in their writings? What persuades and what fails to persuade?

00:10:51:10 – 00:11:12:07
Speaker 2
Well, I would say what Saint Paul says in Colossians four six, always make sure your words are seasoned with salt so that you may know how to answer everyone. Our tone should always be something where what is off putting is the message we are proclaiming, not the words or the tone that we are using. So I think that we should be assertive yet gracious.

00:11:12:09 – 00:11:33:17
Speaker 2
So, for example, when it comes to the issue of abortion, we shouldn’t use thundering, denouncing language that’s over-the-top, but we also shouldn’t be mealy mouthed and just treat it as if it’s not a big deal. I think we can fairly say things like the dismembering of little human beings in the womb ought to be illegal, and people of goodwill should agree with us about that point.

00:11:33:23 – 00:11:50:11
Speaker 2
So it’s going to be a fine line. But I believe assertive yet gracious is a tone we should put forward and not demonizing those who disagree. But to be making a distinction between those we disagree with and the false ideas that they hold right.

00:11:50:13 – 00:11:58:19
Speaker 1
What should a Catholic know about the faith, and what ways should they go about to learn this?

00:11:58:21 – 00:12:30:01
Speaker 2
Well, I think the best place for them to go would be the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Now that’s a very long book, over 2600 paragraphs in it. So they might want to start with something like the compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. But if they just start with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and they read ten paragraphs a night, Monday through Friday, so that would take them 5 or 10 minutes a night in one year, they’ll read the entire catechism, and then they’ll have a very firm idea about what the church teaches on a variety of theological issues, moral issues.

00:12:30:03 – 00:12:49:02
Speaker 2
So I would recommend, really starting there and then supplementing that with reading a chapter of the New Testament every night. So I think those are those are two sources right there. If someone immerses himself or herself in those sources, they’ll be they will know a lot about the faith. They’ll be able to answer 80% of questions or objections to it.

00:12:49:07 – 00:12:51:17
Speaker 2
So I think that’s a good place to start. Excellent.

00:12:51:19 – 00:13:12:07
Speaker 1
Pope Francis has now been, a pope for over 11 years now. What has he taught us? How has he, made the gospel more accessible? And are there anywhere, any ways in which, he has perhaps sowed some confusion?

00:13:12:09 – 00:13:37:04
Speaker 2
Well, I think Pope Francis has taught us the importance of approachability. I mean, the papacy has undergone dramatic change in the history of the church, really, since the Second Vatican Council or probably shortly before that. I mean, for example, in the 20th century, that was the first time you had, popes, for example, leaving Italy or leaving the Vatican.

00:13:37:06 – 00:14:17:20
Speaker 2
The pope has always been seen as, a secluded monarch who just kind of oversees a Catholic kingdom, essentially. But he’s a secluded monarch nonetheless and treated as such. Whereas, especially with the, the world, you know, of course, you have Pope Paul the sixth, traveling to Israel and then, of course, Pope John Paul the second, amazing transformation of the pontificate, becoming really, really transforming the papacy, making the pope into the most internationally recognized religious figure, if not the most internationally recognized figure in the world, regardless of your, who you are.

00:14:17:20 – 00:14:42:12
Speaker 2
I mean, there would have been a time when, many people, the only people knew the Pope was where Catholics and maybe the Protestants who despised him. But now you have people of all different cultures, backgrounds, whatever they may be. They knew who Pope John Paul the Second was. They knew who Pope Benedict was, and they know who Pope Francis’s and Pope Francis, I think, really showed a very important pastoral element, especially he’s the first non European.

00:14:42:14 – 00:15:10:09
Speaker 2
Oh, so to have him to help represent the church, breaking out of the boundaries, that Catholicism was not just a European or a Western tradition. I mean, Catholicism is growing most violently in the less developed world, Latin America, Africa especially. And he really showed that. I, I remember when I met Pope Francis shortly after, he, you know, after he became pope, my wife and I were on our honeymoon.

00:15:10:09 – 00:15:30:18
Speaker 2
We went to the Vatican’s in May 2013, and we go and we had bought a this is soon after we were married. There’s a thing called supposing, know Valley. If you go within your certain time and you go in your wedding dress attire, you can meet the Pope. And so we went and we brought, we bought a papal Zucchero from his tailor to switch with him.

00:15:30:20 – 00:15:48:19
Speaker 2
And he like, joked with us and took my wife’s veil and he said, how about I take this instead? I said, you’re the Pope. You can have whatever you want. But I could just tell this is really authentic, humility, humor and seeing how he’s reached out to people on the peripheries, I think I think it’s very beautiful.

00:15:48:21 – 00:16:07:16
Speaker 2
That said, though, I think in trying to reach out to those on the peripheries and coming from a background that’s more pastoral, that can lead the Pope to speaking more off the cuff, which can be hard in an age where everybody parses your words. John Paul the second was a trained philosopher. Benedict was a trained biblical theologian.

00:16:07:16 – 00:16:23:22
Speaker 2
These are men who are very trained about parsing their words carefully and what they say and do. And Pope Francis is just not part of that tradition. So when he says certain things, you know, it can it can be liable, to either be taken the wrong way or maybe it’s a way of speaking or acting that might be imprudent.

00:16:23:22 – 00:16:45:22
Speaker 2
Even, pope, the Pope himself has said that he wants to, to make a mess. So I think that that will, you know, sometime after his pontificate. I think that will give enough a breathing room to really discern the legacy of that. But I do believe is authentic humility and holiness. That will always be something for people to admire.

00:16:46:00 – 00:17:29:14
Speaker 1
Living in this technological age can cause a tremendous amount of confusion. There are certain very conservative Catholics who are beginning to doubt certain aspects of the Second Vatican Council. I’ve even heard some Catholics questioning the Luminous Mysteries or the or or, Saint Augustine of Divine Mercy. What how should Catholics approach this confusion? What are ways in which Catholics can be grounded in good, solid Catholic orthodoxy?

00:17:29:16 – 00:17:56:11
Speaker 2
Well, I would say it’s important for Catholics to remember that the authority we are under is the teaching authority of Christ Church, the living magisterium of the church, the authority that we submit ourselves to is not our personal opinion about what Scripture or even church history and tradition mean. We are placed in the authority of those or the successors of the apostles who are alive today.

00:17:56:11 – 00:18:15:17
Speaker 2
The bishops, including the bishop of Rome, all the bishops in union with him. So that is, who is authority that we we are under, Saint Ambrose said plainly. He said, where Peter is, there is the church. Now, that doesn’t mean everything that the bishop, that of a bishop, or even all the bishops say is going to be the most prudent.

00:18:15:17 – 00:18:37:21
Speaker 2
For example. But we are to give what the church teaches its proper level of authority. So if the if the Pope gives a, off the cuff answer to a reporter that’s going to have the lowest level of authority, if not, you know, no authority, it’ll be negligible if it’s something that’s given in, an ecumenical council. Well, that’s one of the highest levels of authority.

00:18:37:22 – 00:18:59:17
Speaker 2
The Second Vatican Council did not define anything infallibly, but it represents the universal teaching of the church. And to just reject that because there’s things about you personally disagree with, how is that different from others who rejected the church? How is that different from Catholics who broke away after the First Vatican Council in 1870? There were Catholics and they’re still around.

00:18:59:17 – 00:19:22:21
Speaker 2
They’re members of the Old Catholic Church. And Pope Pius the 10th and others excoriated Catholics who left after what was back then in the 1870s, 1890s, up to the 20th century, a controversial Vatican council they disagreed with. How is it different from those leaving during the Protestant Reformation or the Great Schism? We have to be faithful to the church.

00:19:22:23 – 00:19:39:12
Speaker 2
If there are things that confuse us. We should pray. We should offer that up. We should seek guidance from those who are theologically well grounded and spiritually well grounded. But we should we should take care not to, make the church submit to our authority. It’s the other way around.

00:19:39:12 – 00:19:45:13
Speaker 1
So how should we form our consciences in this carnage?

00:19:45:15 – 00:20:12:22
Speaker 2
I would say prayer and study, prayer being the most important you’ll find even if you don’t hit the books. If you are going to. Regular confession, praying daily, attending mass even more than Sundays and holy days of obligation, fervent prayer life. Having a spiritual director, I find that can make the that that makes the heart open to the movement of the spirit that directs us when we are faced with morally difficult decisions to make.

00:20:13:00 – 00:20:30:21
Speaker 2
And then from there, as I said earlier, being grounded in things like the catechism, the authentic teachings of the church, and maybe not being as worried about what, you know, social media, dwelling on gossip or the news or the bad news of the day or whatever that might be.

00:20:30:23 – 00:20:44:23
Speaker 1
Last question. Sure. Many of the listeners of this podcast are college age students. What advice do you give to college aged students as they prepare for the real world?

00:20:45:01 – 00:21:07:01
Speaker 2
Well, I would say the future will be here before you know it. Take advantage of this time now and don’t squander it. A lot of times it can feel like we live in an age where adolescence can be delayed indefinitely for some people. I know, I know adults in their 40s and 50s that are still living a delayed adolescence.

00:21:07:03 – 00:21:27:18
Speaker 2
And it can be very tempting for those in college because you can set up a life where you don’t have to make a commitment to anyone or anything. You just live for yourself. I would say for college students now to seriously pray about their vocation. And, a vocation is not and honestly, just the single life is not a vocation.

00:21:27:18 – 00:21:48:09
Speaker 2
You can have a vocation if you are unmarried or in religious law and neither married nor in religious life, you can still have a vocation. But, my friend Chris Czech likes to say man was meant to live in the context of a vow. So I would say instead of just meandering through life, take advantage of the time you have now to discern what sort of vow do you want to make?

00:21:48:11 – 00:22:12:22
Speaker 2
Is it a vow to another person in marriage? Then what do you need to do to become marriageable? Either a man or a woman. What are the skills to be marriageable? Those traits that make you valuable for that vocation. Develop them in yourself. Is it religious life? Priesthood? Discerning that? Or maybe you haven’t discerned either of those, but you can live a single life where you’ve made a vow to serve the community, for example, in a variety of ways.

00:22:13:02 – 00:22:30:07
Speaker 2
Anything where it could be a solemn vow, or it could just be a private vow to serve others and a particular purpose in life that you’re growing in, that you’re not just going, you’re not just aimlessly going through life. That’s really what I would recommend for for college. It’s it’s okay to have fun. I had fun in my 20s.

00:22:30:07 – 00:22:39:07
Speaker 2
It’s a good time to have adventures before kids get you up in the middle of the night. But in the midst of the adventures, having ordered and you’re pursuing. Oh.

00:22:39:09 – 00:22:57:11
Speaker 1
Thank you very much, Trent, and thank you for watching this episode of conversation. Please subscribe and tell your friends about the conversation we’re on Spotify, Apple and Google. Thank you very much.

00:22:57:13 – 00:23:07:07
Speaker 1
You.

• Trent Horn’s “Why We’re Catholic”
• Learn more about Trent Horn